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necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll

Nap Ghost

H110Hawk posted:

Eventually I realized I could just run a flathead screw driver around it snapping all the tabs clean off and self-insure the disks and haven't looked back.
What's this "insurance" you speak of? I've had 3+ of these shucked drives fail just right outside their warranty periods and given nearly every credit card I have terminated their extended warranty programs would pay a little bit more per drive to have some insurance instead of eating the $450 I've lost to those drives.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

necrobobsledder posted:

What's this "insurance" you speak of? I've had 3+ of these shucked drives fail just right outside their warranty periods and given nearly every credit card I have terminated their extended warranty programs would pay a little bit more per drive to have some insurance instead of eating the $450 I've lost to those drives.

It just means buying more drives at the same price thanks to the shucking discount. For example, a retail 10TB WD Red runs $270. A 10TB Easystore is regularly $180. So you can buy three Easystores for the same price as two retail drives, so you can toss one on a shelf and "self-insure" against failures outside the warranty period, since statistically you shouldn't have that many of them failing.

I'm pretty sure several CitiBank cards are still doing their 24mo extended warranty, so you might want to give those a look.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


necrobobsledder posted:

What's this "insurance" you speak of? I've had 3+ of these shucked drives fail just right outside their warranty periods and given nearly every credit card I have terminated their extended warranty programs would pay a little bit more per drive to have some insurance instead of eating the $450 I've lost to those drives.

I'm talking about self insurance. The spread between the cost of the shucked disk and the "real" red disk is money in your pocket. You take that money in your pocket and in 0-5 years when your disk fails, buy a brand new easy store right off the shelf with your saved money. Future inflation bucks and the march forward of technology mean that disks should be cheaper then than they are now, compounding your savings.

The Milkman
Jun 22, 2003

No one here is alone,
satellites in every home


Lipstick Apathy

DrDork posted:

FWIW I've been shucking drives for DIY NASes for years (including rebuilding one a few months ago) and have never had to fuck with a 3.3v pin.

But, yeah, considering that shucked drives are ~50% the cost of retail drives, and have the same/similar MTBF, there's really no reason to buy retail drives unless Easystores simply aren't available where you are.

I've had to tape over the pin on the two drives I've shucked. One EasyStore 10TB for my desktop last year, and last week a 14TB for my NAS to gradually replace the old 5TB reds that are starting to give up the ghost.

I am very stupid and clumsy and easily get frustrated like a small child and still managed to safely shuck and tape them. I do keep the box and enclosure though, I stuff a little post it note with the bay and serial number in the box Just In Case I need to match them back up for an RMA.

necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll

Nap Ghost

Hmm, looks like Costco's Citibank can cover me for these drives. Too bad I chucked them after the WD warranty expired and the one I sent in was denied. Need to hold onto the original controller boards to match them with the drive it appears. Pretty annoying holding onto all this stuff when I'm trying to keep my equipment sprawl down but these drives are worth a decent bit more than most of my stuff so it seems like a fair trade-off.

I'm close enough to breaking even enough with the Easystore v. retail NAS drives even with 4 drive failures out of 11, one of which was RMA approved, that I'm re-thinking the math. Never had this kind of drive failure rate over 8 years of a mix of WD Greens, Reds, Samsung Spinpoint, and Toshiba 7200 RPM drives. In fact, had zero failures of my Samsung and Toshiba drives despite being half my set of drives over the same time period.

The Milkman
Jun 22, 2003

No one here is alone,
satellites in every home


Lipstick Apathy

Those Toshiba drives are tanks. The ones I have are far older and have outlasted multiple (real, nonshucked) Reds. If Easystores weren't a third of the price I wouldn't be fucking around with WD at all.

Axe-man
Apr 16, 2005

The product of hundreds of hours of scientific investigation and research.

The perfect meatball.


Clapping Larry

Synology's goal is to become the Apple of NAS, aka, it just works, and it can use some stuff to add on to it, but it comes with all it needs to do the job.

A word on Synology Datasheets: All datasheets are written up from when they originally built the machine. Therefore as long as they have a 64 bit processor and ram to handle them, they can handle pretty much the max that the hardware compatibility list shows.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

necrobobsledder posted:

I'm close enough to breaking even enough with the Easystore v. retail NAS drives even with 4 drive failures out of 11, one of which was RMA approved, that I'm re-thinking the math. Never had this kind of drive failure rate over 8 years of a mix of WD Greens, Reds, Samsung Spinpoint, and Toshiba 7200 RPM drives. In fact, had zero failures of my Samsung and Toshiba drives despite being half my set of drives over the same time period.

How long did you have those drives that failed? 4/11 is much, much higher than what most of us are seeing.

Thermopyle
Jul 1, 2003

...the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt. —Bertrand Russell



I've got the following with no problems:

13 - 3TB WD Reds that are 8 years old
5 - 5TB Reds that are 3 years old
8 - 8TB+ Reds that are shucked that are from 6 months to multiple years old

However, I'm not really confident that anyone's experiences here really mean a whole lot statistically speaking. I'd buy pretty much any major brand for a good price.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





The Milkman posted:

Those Toshiba drives are tanks. The ones I have are far older and have outlasted multiple (real, nonshucked) Reds. If Easystores weren't a third of the price I wouldn't be fucking around with WD at all.

I've had no failures with my four 5TB Toshibas either, but the RMA process is enough to scare me off of buying more.

Thermopyle posted:

I've got the following with no problems:

13 - 3TB WD Reds that are 8 years old
5 - 5TB Reds that are 3 years old
8 - 8TB+ Reds that are shucked that are from 6 months to multiple years old

However, I'm not really confident that anyone's experiences here really mean a whole lot statistically speaking. I'd buy pretty much any major brand for a good price.

My 3TB reds are all finally dying, but I abused the absolute fuck out of them over the years - including running in a very hot garage. They owe me nothing, and I can get more 3TB drives to replace them for $20-30 all day long since I can use SAS drives too.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

I love the succulent taste of cop boots

I just finished filling a synology at work with 3TB WD RE's $59 each. It already had 8 of them so that's why I didn't go bigger.

Western Digital Se WD3000F9YZ 3TB 7200RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" (Datacenter Storage) Enterprise Hard Drive - 5 Years Warranty https://www.amazon.com/dp/B084PZGQ4...i_TENIEbRQ5DMZB

Rexxed
May 1, 2010

Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!



12TB Easystore deals either ongoing or back again:
$179.99 from BB or BB on ebay or BB on google shopping:
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/wd-eas...p?skuId=6364259
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WD-Easysto...k-/323998058777
https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...409141082269253

14TB for $249.99 which is not as good of a deal, but worth mentioning I guess:
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/wd-eas...p?skuId=6390390
https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...367337244505133

Enos Cabell
Nov 3, 2004



Cables showed up a few days early, so now I have breathing room again.

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

ああ!彼からのメールだ!

College Slice

I have a pressing need for some storage coming up soon, and need some guidance.

Even though I have a box I built a few years ago, I haven't touched it in over 6 years now (it's been powered off for 5 years) and I really don't want to comb through what remains of the NAS4Free documentation to try to spin up or migrate my ZFS pool and have it just go kaput almost immediately since it's a 4x2TB WD Red array. Starting from scratch and going with a Synology seems like the best bet.

I'm thinking of getting a DS1819+ and filling it half up with either 8TB or 12TB drives and expanding later if I need to. Can you add more storage to a Synology pool later or it is like ZFS where you define the pool and have to migrate to a new one if you want to expand? Is there any compelling reason to get the SSD caching expansion card if it's going to be for backups and maybe some streaming? Should I immediately up the RAM from 4GB to 8 or 16GB? Is there anything I should look out for?

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


Phone posted:

I'm thinking of getting a DS1819+ and filling it half up with either 8TB or 12TB drives and expanding later if I need to. Can you add more storage to a Synology pool later or it is like ZFS where you define the pool and have to migrate to a new one if you want to expand? Is there any compelling reason to get the SSD caching expansion card if it's going to be for backups and maybe some streaming? Should I immediately up the RAM from 4GB to 8 or 16GB? Is there anything I should look out for?

Yes you can expand an SHR2 volume. Use this to see how the math shakes out: https://www.synology.com/en-us/support/RAID_calculator

I use the SSD Read Cache because I had a literally-free SSD so I slapped that bad boy in there. I think it has a placebo effect of making my time machine backups faster. More RAM is only needed if you run a lot of services directly on there, or want an even larger block cache. I wouldn't worry about it out of the gate, I upgraded mine because I ran crashplan (Java lol) straight on the device. Today I wouldn't bother.

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

ああ!彼からのメールだ!

College Slice

SHR2 = RAID 6/RAID Z2 it seems?

Is there a good resource on scavenging USB externals for their sweet, sweet, sweet gooey internals? Looks like 14TB passports are $250 a pop at BestBuy.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


Phone posted:

SHR2 = RAID 6/RAID Z2 it seems?

Is there a good resource on scavenging USB externals for their sweet, sweet, sweet gooey internals? Looks like 14TB passports are $250 a pop at BestBuy.

I use a flathead screw driver and force. Others use nuance and credit cards/shims/love.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Phone posted:

SHR2 = RAID 6/RAID Z2 it seems?

In the sense that you can tolerate 2 drive failures before data loss, at the expense of surrendering two drives to parity, yes.

12TB Easystores are currently $180, making them substantially more cost-effective than 14TB $250 drives if you don't need the extra space.

Unless you're really planning on keeping the enclosures around in case you need to RMA them (and some people have had luck just RMA'ing the bare drive), a screwdriver and 10 seconds of snapping the little retention clips is all you need. If you have a drive that doesn't seem to work right in your Synology, google taping the 3.3v pin to see if that's the issue. I've never had that problem, but some other people have.

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

ああ!彼からのメールだ!

College Slice

Where are the $180 12TB Easystores?

I only see $250 12TB Easystores and $250 14TB Easystores.

Rexxed
May 1, 2010

Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!



Phone posted:

Where are the $180 12TB Easystores?

I only see $250 12TB Easystores and $250 14TB Easystores.

The prices were accurate when I posted them but I guess they only lasted a little while. There'll be some more soon I'd imagine. Right now 10TB is $179.99 on BB's site but it's probably more sensible to wait.

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

ああ!彼からのメールだ!

College Slice

Not including tax, waiting around for another $180 sale is $15/TB versus $17.85 for the 14TB. Not an awful density tax.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Phone posted:

Where are the $180 12TB Easystores?

I only see $250 12TB Easystores and $250 14TB Easystores.

Yeah, looks like they're back up to $250 again. They were $180 a few hours ago. They'll come around again shortly, certainly, but of course that depends on whether you can afford to wait or not.

kloa
Feb 14, 2007



I wish they'd just sell those drives bare for the same price

I don't want to have to hoard a bunch of huge boxes in my closet in case I need to warranty it in the future.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


kloa posted:

I wish they'd just sell those drives bare for the same price

I don't want to have to hoard a bunch of huge boxes in my closet in case I need to warranty it in the future.

So throw them away after the return window and pretend they don't have a warranty.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

People on Reddit have also have had some luck with RMAing bare drives. Apparently the only 100% not gonna be accepted plan is to put the wrong drive back into a different enclosure--the S/Ns not matching up makes WD get uppity. But, yeah, statistically you're unlikely to need to RMA them after 30 days but before 2 years, so if they're cluttering your space, just ditch the things.

H2SO4
Sep 11, 2001

put your money in a log cabin




Buglord

I basically keep the boxes a couple months and if I don't see failures then I toss 'em. I've yet to have a drive fail on me within the warranty period so I'd rather just float that risk rather than wasting all the physical space keeping that stuff around. By the time they do die it's usually time to start the upgrade phase again and migrate to bigger disks.

I can say that Seagate does track which drive came from which enclosure though, their warranty checker tool does tell me that much.

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

ああ!彼からのメールだ!

College Slice

Doing slightly more research last night, it seems like running each drive through a pass of badblocks isn't the worst idea in the world? Or is it on the same level of 7-pass DBAN NSA ApprovedTM fud?

D. Ebdrup
Mar 13, 2009



Phone posted:

Doing slightly more research last night, it seems like running each drive through a pass of badblocks isn't the worst idea in the world? Or is it on the same level of 7-pass DBAN NSA ApprovedTM fud?
What's your goal? All drives, before they're provisioned, should be run through a few stress tests to eliminate DoA and near-DoA that comes from bathtub curves.
NIST has a whole report in a pdf on it, but as for DBAN, it's worth noting NIST does point out that it is the only form of secure erase that has any chance of working - sdelete and similar tools that work on a filesystem level have no provable effect against anything but the lowest common denominator of forensic data recovery.
NIST also recommends using FDE because the ease and speed with which cryptographic erasure can happen - although whether you'll want to trust hardware-implemented FDE such as the OPAL spec with the ATA sanitize command is an entirely different question.

Highest level of forensic data recovery protection always has and always will be:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iWB7FkuM_4
(Warning: mechanical shredding of disks is LOUD)

Is it wrong of me to have written this post, just so that I can link to that video of harddisks being shredded? Because I love watching harddisks be shredded.

D. Ebdrup
Mar 13, 2009



Reply is not edit.
Mind you, DBAN doesn't account for data recovery from a hard drive using magnetic force microscopy where the physical sectors on the platter are read by a head that's at a perpendicular angle whereas normally the disk would be straight over the sector - although only with a cap between the disk and the head of about 700 pico-meters.

D. Ebdrup fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Apr 8, 2020

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

ああ!彼からのメールだ!

College Slice

I brought up DBAN, specifically the 7-pass, as shit that was parroted for years that was ultimately a colossal waste of time since 1-pass is sufficient; however, there would still be people online saying how they do 20 passes and they were being serious.

The question was more of "run badblocks y/n?" because I don't have any first hand experience with it.

e:

D. Ebdrup posted:

Reply is not edit.
Mind you, DBAN doesn't account for data recovery from a hard drive using magnetic force microscopy where the physical sectors on the platter are read by a head that's at a perpendicular angle whereas normally the disk would be straight over the sector - although only with a cap between the disk and the head of about 700 pico-meters.

D. Ebdrup
Mar 13, 2009



Phone posted:

I brought up DBAN, specifically the 7-pass, as shit that was parroted for years that was ultimately a colossal waste of time since 1-pass is sufficient; however, there would still be people online saying how they do 20 passes and they were being serious.

The question was more of "run badblocks y/n?" because I don't have any first hand experience with it.
The thing to realize about badblocks (badsect on BSD systems) is that it does nothing for you if you don't then supply the database of bad sectors to your filesystem as it's initialized (or during a fsck, at least for the combination of badsect+UFS on FreeBSD), so that the filesystem can avoid those areas.
ZFS, being awesome, doesn't need any of this - because it has scrub which is designed to fix these issues.

EDIT: Also, fun fact: badsect is almost 40 years old.

Yeah, it's some impressive research

D. Ebdrup fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Apr 8, 2020

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


Phone posted:

Doing slightly more research last night, it seems like running each drive through a pass of badblocks isn't the worst idea in the world? Or is it on the same level of 7-pass DBAN NSA ApprovedTM fud?

If it makes you sleep better yeah, I slapped a hundred gigs on the disk overnight via usb and called it good for the first one. Second one I said fuck it and shucked it after a basic power on test.

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

ああ!彼からのメールだ!

College Slice

D. Ebdrup posted:

The thing to realize about badblocks (badsect on BSD systems) is that it does nothing for you if you don't then supply the database of bad sectors to your filesystem as it's initialized (or during a fsck, at least for the combination of badsect+UFS on FreeBSD), so that the filesystem can avoid those areas.
ZFS, being awesome, doesn't need any of this - because it has scrub which is designed to fix these issues.

EDIT: Also, fun fact: badsect is almost 40 years old.

Yeah, it's some impressive research

I keep poorly framing my question... I’m planning on going to Synology + Easystore route and I’m trying to figure out what’s a good CYA before putting the disks into the Synology in order to force bathtub curve issues to pop up sooner rather than later. I’m trying to avoid popping in 4 drives straight out of the external enclosures into the NAS and then figuring out on my first backup that 1 or the 2 drives was toast right out the gate despite initializing and being formatted OK.

I’m also trying to avoid the equivalent of audiophile alignment crystals.

D. Ebdrup
Mar 13, 2009



Phone posted:

I keep poorly framing my question... I’m planning on going to Synology + Easystore route and I’m trying to figure out what’s a good CYA before putting the disks into the Synology in order to force bathtub curve issues to pop up sooner rather than later. I’m trying to avoid popping in 4 drives straight out of the external enclosures into the NAS and then figuring out on my first backup that 1 or the 2 drives was toast right out the gate despite initializing and being formatted OK.

I’m also trying to avoid the equivalent of audiophile alignment crystals.
Right, that's what I was talking about with stress tests. I can't find the it right now, but I read somewhere that most places just do the short test, extended test, surface read test, surface write test, and the conveyance test available via S.M.A.R.T and then do a full format via ATA commands, optionally a couple of times. If your stress test takes less than a few days, it's too short - if it takes longer than a week, it's too long.
Settle on what you feel comfortable with, disks are going to betray no matter what you do.

Also, I forgot to answer the first part about what you said earlier.
3- and 7-pass erasure existed because of an initial version of DOD 5220.22, which in the latest -M revision has been updated to no longer recommend a number of passes of rewritten data - original spec required a zero-pass, a one-pass, and a random-pass.
I guess the idea that only one pass is enough is based on the lack of the standard no longer recommending a given number of passes, but I think it's more likely that DOD enforces cryptographic erasure on everything so they just don't care.

D. Ebdrup fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Apr 8, 2020

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

D. Ebdrup posted:

I guess the idea that only one pass is enough is based on the lack of the standard no longer recommending a given number of passes, but I think it's more likely that DOD enforces cryptographic erasure on everything so they just don't care.

The other part to it is that any information system storing anything the DoD would actually care about requires the physical destruction of the media anyhow, not just an overwrite, before the device is released from the DoD's possession. Overwriting is only acceptable if the device is going to be re-used in the same environment, or if no classified data was ever stored on it. Otherwise you're talking incineration, destructive degaussing, or the good 'ol shredder above.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

I love the succulent taste of cop boots

We have a degausser

necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll

Nap Ghost

DoD does crap to dispose drives down to scrap metal and worse because for nation states with billions and billions invested even finding your serial number is a big deal because it can give away your suppliers potentially like when Lockheed has their MFA tokens compromised en masse because China found the factory that makes them and got serial numbers and their randomization scheme for thousands of tokens.

I present to you the real security matrix: Mossad or not Mossad https://www.usenix.org/system/files...-12_mickens.pdf

D. Ebdrup
Mar 13, 2009



necrobobsledder posted:

DoD does crap to dispose drives down to scrap metal and worse because for nation states with billions and billions invested even finding your serial number is a big deal because it can give away your suppliers potentially like when Lockheed has their MFA tokens compromised en masse because China found the factory that makes them and got serial numbers and their randomization scheme for thousands of tokens.

I present to you the real security matrix: Mossad or not Mossad https://www.usenix.org/system/files...-12_mickens.pdf
I linked James Mickens' article in the InfoSec thread just the other day; it's the best.

nerox
May 20, 2001


TraderStav posted:

My external 8 bay tower, lsi card, and 8088 cables just arrived today! Just in time for weekend project. Check out monoprice for the cable, I got it for like $9 and in three days.

This is a few pages back cause I haven't caught up on the thread in a few days, but can you link me the 8 bay external tower you are referring to?

TraderStav
May 19, 2006

It feels like I was standing my entire life and I just sat down


nerox posted:

This is a few pages back cause I haven't caught up on the thread in a few days, but can you link me the 8 bay external tower you are referring to?

Sure thing:

8 bay SAS / SATA Bare 6G JBOD Tower w/SFF-8088 Connectors - B0806

LSI LSI00276 PCI-Express 2.0 x8 SATA / SAS 9201-16e Host Bus Adapter Single Pack--Avago Technologies

Monoprice 1m 28AWG External Mini SAS 26pin (SFF-8088) Male to Mini SAS 26pin (SFF-8088) Male Cable - Black

Installed the card, installed the drive, connected the two together and UnRaid on my Dell T7810 picked everything up automatically. Really nice tower, comes with 5.25" to 3.5" brackets already. Very happy.

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