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Eletriarnation
Apr 6, 2005

People don't appreciate the substance of things...
objects in space.



Oven Wrangler

Red's a consumer drive, even if it is intended for NAS use, so 3 years seems typical. Same with IronWolf. IronWolf Pro does 5 though.

astral
Apr 26, 2004



Thermopyle posted:

A 5TB WD Red in one of my pools faulted this morning with over a thousand write errors.

I go to check the warranty status and...

It expired one month ago. :/

Echoing call ASAP; ask for an exception since it's so close if the first person you talk to tells you it's out of warranty.

ufarn posted:

Three years on WD Reds?! That sounds like an absurd warranty, especially for reds. Guess I'm reading the fine print next time I buy.

E: That's apparently what IronWolf has, too. But still worth contacting them given how close you were to the expiration date.

Buy it with an Amex or Citi card to extend the warranty by two years. Don't use a Chase card - the one time I tried to make an extended warranty claim for a hard drive they got really confused because it's not like a cell phone where you can take it to an omnipresent repair shop and get a repair estimate. They also didn't want to accept test results from WD's official tools as a 'diagnostics report from authorized service center'. Eventually, they decided they could cover it if I sent the drive in, but I was uncomfortable with that idea so I contacted WD again and received the aforementioned warranty exception. Luckily, I had contacted WD at the beginning so it was on file that it failed so soon out of warranty; I just hadn't pushed for an exception that time.

astral fucked around with this message at 18:16 on May 2, 2019

Thermopyle
Jul 1, 2003

...the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt. —Bertrand Russell



Yeah, I spent 15 minutes on the phone and they went ahead and covered it even though it was a month out of warranty.

They're doing the "advanced replacement" where they put a hold on CC until you ship old drive back to them.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Thermopyle posted:

They're doing the "advanced replacement" where they put a hold on CC until you ship old drive back to them.

Only way to go, since you get their shipping materials to send the drive back with.

Axe-man
Apr 16, 2005

The product of hundreds of hours of scientific investigation and research.

The perfect meatball.


Clapping Larry

I started working for a commercial/consumer NAS company recent, so I've been getting in the NAS game as it were. I've got a few arrays going myself, though I have a real noobie question about WD purple series, it seems like just WD red with the option for 7200 rpms. Well and a slightly higher price point.

It seems like if you were going that way, just slapping in WD reds with a well managed storage array would get you just as far, unless I am missing something.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


Axe-man posted:

I started working for a commercial/consumer NAS company recent, so I've been getting in the NAS game as it were. I've got a few arrays going myself, though I have a real noobie question about WD purple series, it seems like just WD red with the option for 7200 rpms. Well and a slightly higher price point.

It seems like if you were going that way, just slapping in WD reds with a well managed storage array would get you just as far, unless I am missing something.

Ask your WD rep for the specifics. It's firmware for encoding video streams in a DVR with guaranteed throughput per "channel."

ringu0
Feb 24, 2013




deong posted:

I'm wanting to get a NAS system to replace my current dual external backups. Right now I just copy between my desktop 1tb to 2 separate 5tb drives. I run ubuntu as my main system, and I just do an rsync to move things over.

Thinking of getting a DS418play with 2 WD 8tb shucked drives in a SHR array. From there, I'd have 2 expansion bays for the future right? Just plug in the new drives and away it goes?

My home consists of a little of everything. I mostly use the storage for video and backing up pictures/documents. I'd probably keep doing the USB sync for important things. I have a rpi running kodi, ipad that accesses w/ vlc, android phone, macbook and windows laptop. I'd like everything to be able to reach it, I assume just a SMB share works fine for that. Is there anything I'm missing? It seems like I'd just be sacrificing cost. I used to do freenas on zfs but my pools fucked up and I went to the 2 usb externals.. This was probably 10 years ago tho.

I'm about to get my first NAS as well, but I'm not going to abandon my existing external backups. In fact, I'm thinking of adding a BackBlaze B2 as an off-site backup. My ready-made box is DS918+.

Actuarial Fables
Jul 29, 2014



Taco Defender

Axe-man posted:

I started working for a commercial/consumer NAS company recent, so I've been getting in the NAS game as it were. I've got a few arrays going myself, though I have a real noobie question about WD purple series, it seems like just WD red with the option for 7200 rpms. Well and a slightly higher price point.

From what I've been told, the purples use different firmware that lets them ignore single-bit errors. For surveillance, it's much more important to keep up with the video streams and get it onto the disk than it is to verify that all the data is correct - you're not going to care if a pixel is blue instead of green for one frame of a video, but you will care if you're missing a bunch of frames.

Actuarial Fables fucked around with this message at 19:22 on May 2, 2019

Axe-man
Apr 16, 2005

The product of hundreds of hours of scientific investigation and research.

The perfect meatball.


Clapping Larry

H110Hawk posted:

Ask your WD rep for the specifics. It's firmware for encoding video streams in a DVR with guaranteed throughput per "channel."



Actuarial Fables posted:

From what I've been told, the purples use different firmware that lets them ignore single-bit errors. For surveillance, it's much more important to keep up with the video streams and get it onto the disk than it is to verify that all the data is correct - you're not going to care if a pixel is blue instead of green for one frame of a video, but you will care if you're missing a bunch of frames.
This makes a lot of sense thanks. I can think of better solutions personally but then again it is a cheaper solution then most.


Also as someone who recently started with a new NAS for my personal use I always suggest using it to add on to what you have unless it is broken.

Always good to have backups of backups

Crunchy Black
Oct 24, 2017

CASTOR: Uh, it was all fine and you don't remember?
VINDMAN: No, it was bad and I do remember.




Yeah as others have stated, the Purples have firmware that is specific for sustained, streaming writes. Probably not ideal in a typical consumer NAS situation, at least insofar as this thread is concerned.

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

I MEAN, TURN OFF YOURE MONITOR, MIGTH EXPLAIN YOUR BAD POSTS, HOPE THIS HELPS?!

Are WD Reds Pro ok or are they ? It seems like 7200 is a lot of RPMs to keep going at for years at a time?

8-bit Miniboss
May 24, 2005

CORPO COPS CAME FOR MY


Schadenboner posted:

Are WD Reds Pro ok or are they ? It seems like 7200 is a lot of RPMs to keep going at for years at a time?

Yes, they also have a 5 year warranty compared to the basic Red's 3 year warranty.

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

I MEAN, TURN OFF YOURE MONITOR, MIGTH EXPLAIN YOUR BAD POSTS, HOPE THIS HELPS?!

E: Awful edited rather than made a new post! IR GUD WITH COMPUTARS!

Something something something, the 7200 drives might make Docker run gooder?

Axe-man posted:

That depends on your Synology and how beefy it is. You will have faster read write access but my tests show it mostly comes down to processor and ram for things like docker.

If you want your disks to make an impact in performance significantly I would roll SSDs.

I am rocking a 1019+ personally. Fun to fool around on and beefy enough to work as my VMware station but not like an xs unit or anything.

I’m really just looking at the two or four disk ones (the intel ones obviously) mostly for storage and light media, docker really only to see if I could get a PiHole container to spin up if/when it sees a physical PiHole die. Haven’t really thought through this fully, but good to know about the 5 year warranty.

Schadenboner fucked around with this message at 22:55 on May 3, 2019

Axe-man
Apr 16, 2005

The product of hundreds of hours of scientific investigation and research.

The perfect meatball.


Clapping Larry

That depends on your Synology and how beefy it is. You will have faster read write access but my tests show it mostly comes down to processor and ram for things like docker.

If you want your disks to make an impact in performance significantly I would roll SSDs.

I am rocking a 1019+ personally. Fun to fool around on and beefy enough to work as my VMware station but not like an xs unit or anything.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


Schadenboner posted:

Are WD Reds Pro ok or are they ? It seems like 7200 is a lot of RPMs to keep going at for years at a time?

Enterprise disks are 10k and 15k rpm (at least, before flash ate their lunch) with 5 year warranties. If you ripped one out while it was running and twisted your wrist you could feel the centrifugal force try to pull the disk from your hand. It was good fun. 5400/7200/10k/15k have been the standard for 20 years.

You're buying 2 things with RPM: Total transfer rate (time it takes the head to pass over your block), and I/O latency reduction (time for the head to get to your block). The thing you're more likely to notice in day to day use is read latency reduction. You can accomplish that much better with a flash cache disk or more RAM than you can with more RPMs.

Warranties tend to be bucketed into: 90 days/DOA, 1, 3, and 5 year. You pay an ever increasing premium to jump between those levels. For a consumer I would suggest just "self insuring" a set of 3 year disks with a credit card poised to buy a replacement. 5 year warranties are great for companies buying an appliance with a 5 year useful life where they want to know the total cost up front and throw the whole thing away on its 5th birthday.

H110Hawk fucked around with this message at 22:55 on May 3, 2019

Twerk from Home
Jan 17, 2009

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.


Schadenboner posted:

Are WD Reds Pro ok or are they ? It seems like 7200 is a lot of RPMs to keep going at for years at a time?

7200RPM disks will use more power and make more heat also. If you've got deep pockets, make sure you're getting helium drives (look for lower power usage). It looks like 10TB Red Pros are helium, which makes them use half the wattage at idle (while spinning) vs the 8TB ones.

8-bit Miniboss
May 24, 2005

CORPO COPS CAME FOR MY


H110Hawk posted:

Enterprise disks are 10k and 15k rpm (at least, before flash ate their lunch) with 5 year warranties. If you ripped one out while it was running and twisted your wrist you could feel the centrifugal force try to pull the disk from your hand. It was good fun. 5400/7200/10k/15k have been the standard for 20 years.

You're buying 2 things with RPM: Total transfer rate (time it takes the head to pass over your block), and I/O latency reduction (time for the head to get to your block). The thing you're more likely to notice in day to day use is read latency reduction. You can accomplish that much better with a flash cache disk or more RAM than you can with more RPMs.

Warranties tend to be bucketed into: 90 days/DOA, 1, 3, and 5 year. You pay an ever increasing premium to jump between those levels. For a consumer I would suggest just "self insuring" a set of 3 year disks with a credit card poised to buy a replacement. 5 year warranties are great for companies buying an appliance with a 5 year useful life where they want to know the total cost up front and throw the whole thing away on its 5th birthday.

I work in the industry and prior to moving to eSSD's, I was on enterprise HDD's and I may or may not have lost my grip on a spinning drive after unplugging it from a test station.

Axe-man
Apr 16, 2005

The product of hundreds of hours of scientific investigation and research.

The perfect meatball.


Clapping Larry

8-bit Miniboss posted:

I work in the industry and prior to moving to eSSD's, I was on enterprise HDD's and I may or may not have lost my grip on a spinning drive after unplugging it from a test station.

Did you break a monitor? Let's say in our test lab there is a broken laptop on a shelf as an example of not what to do.

It was me. I was the dummy.

8-bit Miniboss
May 24, 2005

CORPO COPS CAME FOR MY


Axe-man posted:

Did you break a monitor? Let's say in our test lab there is a broken laptop on a shelf as an example of not what to do.

It was me. I was the dummy.

Fortunately no, but it did have quite a drop so it was promptly placed in our "bad bucket" and never heard from again.

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007

Bote McBoteface. so what


Crunchy Black posted:

Yeah as others have stated, the Purples have firmware that is specific for sustained, streaming writes. Probably not ideal in a typical consumer NAS situation, at least insofar as this thread is concerned.

The last time I inquired about that in this thread, the answer included the clarification that the video/streaming behavior of those specific drives only applied in that "multiple video stream" scenario, so they function as regular drives in other applications.

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

I MEAN, TURN OFF YOURE MONITOR, MIGTH EXPLAIN YOUR BAD POSTS, HOPE THIS HELPS?!

Twerk from Home posted:

7200RPM disks will use more power and make more heat also. If you've got deep pockets, make sure you're getting helium drives (look for lower power usage). It looks like 10TB Red Pros are helium, which makes them use half the wattage at idle (while spinning) vs the 8TB ones.

Isn't that going to make all my music and movies sound like Alvin and the Chipmunks?



E: Also, that name makes no sense, it should either be "Alvin and the Other Chipmunks" or "David and the Chipmunks"?

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007

Bote McBoteface. so what


Schadenboner posted:

Isn't that going to make all my music and movies sound like Alvin and the Chipmunks?



E: Also, that name makes no sense, it should either be "Alvin and the Other Chipmunks" or "David and the Chipmunks"?



Actually, you're alright.

Roundboy
Oct 21, 2008


Twerk from Home posted:

7200RPM disks will use more power and make more heat also. If you've got deep pockets, make sure you're getting helium drives (look for lower power usage). It looks like 10TB Red Pros are helium, which makes them use half the wattage at idle (while spinning) vs the 8TB ones.

As much as I love low power consumption for the 90% of it's lifespan it's idle, I really didn't pay attention much when I put my server together.

The price premiums of 10tb red pro vs 4 or 8 seems like I have a lot of run time before I see the benefit

Looten Plunder
Jul 11, 2006


Grimey Drawer

I swear Amazon is taunting me. I went to bed on Feb 16th with the decision made that I'd buy a NAS the following day. Only to see it had spiked in price overnight.

Ever since then, it's like Amazon knows and it refuses to lower the price again. So cruel.

a dingus
Mar 22, 2008

Rhetorical questions only

Fun Shoe

Did you forget to turn Alexa's mind reader option off?

tangy yet delightful
Sep 13, 2005




Hopefully this is an ok place to ask this but what is the best off-site storage solution for data backup? I am looking into having important documents backed up off-site in case of a fire (or theft I guess) but since they are important I don't want them sitting around as an unencrypted .txt in the ~clouds~

I have access to Microsoft OneDrive via a 365 subscription. I could also utilize google drive or dropbox as I'm already using those for other things. Should I go with something else instead? Maybe toss everything into an encrypted VeraCrypt container in addition to [whatever cloud location I end up using]?

I don't need:
- a ton of storage space, probably only a few GB but certainly under a terabyte. depending on cost differential I might store additional files or just the essentials.
- automatic backups, I can manually do this not even once a month and be fine

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

I MEAN, TURN OFF YOURE MONITOR, MIGTH EXPLAIN YOUR BAD POSTS, HOPE THIS HELPS?!

tangy yet delightful posted:

Hopefully this is an ok place to ask this but what is the best off-site storage solution for data backup? I am looking into having important documents backed up off-site in case of a fire (or theft I guess) but since they are important I don't want them sitting around as an unencrypted .txt in the ~clouds~

I have access to Microsoft OneDrive via a 365 subscription. I could also utilize google drive or dropbox as I'm already using those for other things. Should I go with something else instead? Maybe toss everything into an encrypted VeraCrypt container in addition to [whatever cloud location I end up using]?

I don't need:
- a ton of storage space, probably only a few GB but certainly under a terabyte. depending on cost differential I might store additional files or just the essentials.
- automatic backups, I can manually do this not even once a month and be fine

If it's really really important and you don't need it to be online consider getting a safety deposit box at your credit union or bank* and updating it as necessary. Maybe get two USBs, encrypt them, and switch them off monthly? It's a good place to keep papers anyways.

*: Everyone should be using a credit union.

E: I'm assuming that you don't have, like, nation-state or state-like actors trying to get at your shit because if so you probably wouldn't be posting about it here?

Axe-man
Apr 16, 2005

The product of hundreds of hours of scientific investigation and research.

The perfect meatball.


Clapping Larry

Yeah I mean it depends on the level of security like for my mother I back up her photos to google drive. But if you need the highest level of least possible result of being hacked or what not then a usbdrive in a safety deposit box would be the most secure.

Otherwise a cloud service and having it encrypted would be good enough.

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

I MEAN, TURN OFF YOURE MONITOR, MIGTH EXPLAIN YOUR BAD POSTS, HOPE THIS HELPS?!

Does anyone with a two-NIC Synology know if it handles disconnection of one of the connections (let's assume it was "LAN2") gracefully? Like: it doesn't seize up or restart or require user intervention before LAN2 can be reconnected?

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

I love the succulent taste of cop boots

Schadenboner posted:

Does anyone with a two-NIC Synology know if it handles disconnection of one of the connections (let's assume it was "LAN2") gracefully? Like: it doesn't seize up or restart or require user intervention before LAN2 can be reconnected?

I have a 4-NIC synology and you can disconnect them whenever you want with no issues

tangy yet delightful
Sep 13, 2005




Schadenboner posted:

If it's really really important and you don't need it to be online consider getting a safety deposit box at your credit union or bank* and updating it as necessary. Maybe get two USBs, encrypt them, and switch them off monthly? It's a good place to keep papers anyways.

*: Everyone should be using a credit union.

E: I'm assuming that you don't have, like, nation-state or state-like actors trying to get at your shit because if so you probably wouldn't be posting about it here?

Axe-man posted:

Yeah I mean it depends on the level of security like for my mother I back up her photos to google drive. But if you need the highest level of least possible result of being hacked or what not then a usbdrive in a safety deposit box would be the most secure.

Otherwise a cloud service and having it encrypted would be good enough.

For state level or state like actors I would fall into the category of most Americans, aka probably swept up like everyone else with the NSA and/or China doing their thing. But no I don't have any real threats vectoring in on my e-location.

Sounds like the cloud services are at least good enough (I was basically wondering if the responses would be a litany of lol clouds are vulnerable and you're a huge idiot) with some encryption thrown in. Probably won't fuck around with taking files to a safety deposit box not least of which because no banks are super close and we're moving in ~1 year so I'd have to setup all that shit again.

Axe-man
Apr 16, 2005

The product of hundreds of hours of scientific investigation and research.

The perfect meatball.


Clapping Larry

Edit: on you said nic. Never mind I am a dummy.

Axe-man
Apr 16, 2005

The product of hundreds of hours of scientific investigation and research.

The perfect meatball.


Clapping Larry

Rackspace is pretty secure. There are a lot of options even synology has their own C2 cloud service.

I would say that by using decent encryption you basically prevent 99% of your data to be used even if hacked.

I would research and go with what you feel is safest.

Or you can just use your own nas you put in a friends house and only use it to download backups. (Just did this with my mom)

Crunchy Black
Oct 24, 2017

CASTOR: Uh, it was all fine and you don't remember?
VINDMAN: No, it was bad and I do remember.




Atomizer posted:

The last time I inquired about that in this thread, the answer included the clarification that the video/streaming behavior of those specific drives only applied in that "multiple video stream" scenario, so they function as regular drives in other applications.

I mean, that may be true, but I can't claim to understand the mechanism by which the drive would know that it was in that situation and optimize for it?

D. Ebdrup
Mar 13, 2009



Crunchy Black posted:

I mean, that may be true, but I can't claim to understand the mechanism by which the drive would know that it was in that situation and optimize for it?
Harddrives are a black box, but presumably they use some sort processing in the firmware to look at the contents of the cache and if it matches a particular set of heuristic/magic datapoints then the specific features kick in?

The only real feature I think anyone in this thread needs to look for is TLER, because controlling timeouts for errors on software RAID can be pretty important.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


Crunchy Black posted:

I mean, that may be true, but I can't claim to understand the mechanism by which the drive would know that it was in that situation and optimize for it?

There are SCSI commands to handle the stream provisioning, update its status, etc. You then write your data into that scsi stream. Pry open a HDD based DVR and you will find these disks, put in an otherwise equivalent or better non-DVR based disk and the device may simply reject it for being unable to issue those commands.

Crunchy Black
Oct 24, 2017

CASTOR: Uh, it was all fine and you don't remember?
VINDMAN: No, it was bad and I do remember.




H110Hawk posted:

There are SCSI commands to handle the stream provisioning, update its status, etc. You then write your data into that scsi stream. Pry open a HDD based DVR and you will find these disks, put in an otherwise equivalent or better non-DVR based disk and the device may simply reject it for being unable to issue those commands.

I know some ex-cisco guys that would find this post really funny but it makes sense, thanks!

D. Ebdrup posted:

Harddrives are a black box, but presumably they use some sort processing in the firmware to look at the contents of the cache and if it matches a particular set of heuristic/magic datapoints then the specific features kick in?

The only real feature I think anyone in this thread needs to look for is TLER, because controlling timeouts for errors on software RAID can be pretty important.

Having the cache of a drive actively parsing its own contents for file attributes seems incredibly taxing and unnecessary, no?

e: so what's the common knowledge when you import a pool into freenas and you can't see any file structure in the share? Am I missing something here?

I hope...

Crunchy Black fucked around with this message at 04:49 on May 7, 2019

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


Crunchy Black posted:

I know some ex-cisco guys that would find this post really funny but it makes sense, thanks!

If you could drag them out back and beat them for those ATA Flash disks which were totally not just off the shelf parts with some secret added to it I would appreciate it. Make sure to use a Louisville Slugger® brand bat, accept not substitutes.

Crunchy Black
Oct 24, 2017

CASTOR: Uh, it was all fine and you don't remember?
VINDMAN: No, it was bad and I do remember.




H110Hawk posted:

If you could drag them out back and beat them for those ATA Flash disks which were totally not just off the shelf parts with some secret added to it I would appreciate it. Make sure to use a Louisville Slugger® brand bat, accept not substitutes.

I'd love to know the situation that has you quite so in stitches but, unfortunately, I can't quite elaborate any further due to confidentiality concerns.

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004





So I have a synology d418 or whatever with a couple TB of disk in it

I have both gig-e ethernet cables plugged into it and a name brand gig-e router.

I also have the great asus usb-ac56 plugged in to the synology unit, because why not, it's supported and occasionally I want to do direct wifi and the NAS is sometimes far away from a wired router.

Went to go transfer 200GB of tiny tiny files from my PC server which also has a decent gig-e network adapter. Was getting ~88KB/s. All the cables are cat 5e, etc. Seemed extremely slow given the networking capabilities of the system. 1Mbps minimum, preferably at least 100Mbps. Was telling me that I was expecting 22+ hours to complete.

Finally dug in to the performance pane on the synology, was showing all the traffic going over the wireless usb adapter instead of the 2x 1Gbps wired connections that feed in to the same gig-e router as my PC server.

Unplugged the usb wireless adapter, restarted the transfer, and now I'm getting closer to the expected 200Mbps. Looking at closer to 4 hours to complete now.

TL;DR is there a way I can setup the wireless adapter to connect, but always prefer the gig-e 1 and 2 ports over the much slower usb wifi? Sometimes I need direct wifi access but most of the time I am going to want wired.

Thanks

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