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Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007

Bote McBoteface. so what


LorneReams posted:

I've been using my computer like a swiss army knife, as in it's handing file storage, streaming, production, and gaming. I've realized after a HD crash as well as a high electric bill, that I should probably segregate these tasks as opposed to just leaving my PC on 100% of the time. I got a laptop to handle productivity shit and financial, boring shit, and I'm going to rebuild the gaming PC to be more focused on that task, but then that leaves me with wanting a File Storage and streaming box. I primarily will use this for backups and streaming (using Plex) for my household. Looking online is such a dazzling array of choices that I'm unsure where to start. I don't know what I need in terms of firepower to be able to stream, so it's hard to get a handle on the requirements. Any help will be appreciated.

A gaming desktop will likely use more power than necessary for those other non-gaming tasks, so it's probably a smart idea to get a lower-powered system for the other stuff. You could get a NAS that's capable of transcoding (e.g. WD PR4100, and there are some from other vendors like Synology that can run PMS and hardware transcode.) Otherwise it depends on what you need to transcode; the recommendation from Plex is 2k Passmarks to software transcode a FHD stream, so check out the benchmarked values of various CPUs that you might be considering. A modern i3 though is more than enough for a couple simultaneous streams. Currently I have my PMS/file server running on an older HP EliteDesk micro-SFF PC and it's perfect; that line is the main competitor to the Lenovo ThinkCentre Tiny SFF PCs, which are also an option. An old laptop may also suffice.

MagusDraco posted:

I toss disks with 1 bad sector since usually that means there's way more coming.

Latest one I just removed from my stablebit drivepool stuff actually registered a second bad sector during the day or so it took to remove. Maybe I'll be able to RMA the disk this time though it isn't more than two years old.

Already bought a replacement though. Is it okay to just let a replacement just sit on a shelf/in a desk somewhere in a box?

You could, for the hell of it, use a questionable HDD like that for a non-vital purpose, like for holding games (that are backed up elsewhere if necessary and convenient.) If the drive finally dies while I'm playing Overwatch or whatever then I just grab one of the hundred other drives I have available and install it on that.

It's not a bad idea to have a spare drive on hand, but you should probably run some tests on it for awhile to make sure it's not one that'll fail early.

uhhhhahhhhohahhh posted:

Yeah I just put the new disk in, running the extended SMART test before I start rebuilding but the Synology says its going to take 255 minutes (!!!)

When you do drive tests, it takes as much time as necessary based on the drive's transfer rate. If you have a drive that averages 150 MB/s r/w, and it's 2 TB in capacity, that means a read test would take approximately...4 hours. When I get a new drive I run extensive r/w tests on them that take hours or days to make sure the drive is sound out of the box.

MagusDraco
Nov 11, 2011

even speedwagon was trolled


I wasn't really being clear. I meant for when I RMA the drives with bad sectors can the RMA replacements just sit in a box for like a year or whatever without any real worry since they already got replaced with new drives.

Eletriarnation
Apr 6, 2005

People don't appreciate the substance of things...
objects in space.



Oven Wrangler

Other than the slim possibility that the replacement is DoA and itself needs to be replaced before the warranty period runs out, I don't think there's any risk in leaving it in the box for a year or two.

8-bit Miniboss
May 24, 2005

CORPO COPS CAME FOR MY


At very least do stress the replacement to have any sort of confidence it will be fine by time you actually need it.

MagusDraco
Nov 11, 2011

even speedwagon was trolled


8-bit Miniboss posted:

At very least do stress the replacement to have any sort of confidence it will be fine by time you actually need it.

How would you go about doing that in windows. Don't really have a spare computer to throw them into that can run bad blocks off a linux boot disc for a week (or really fit the extra 2 drives into the NAS in the first place since it maxes out at 4 drives. If "run it in bad blocks for a week anyway" is still the best option I'll probably wait to RMA the two bad disks til the summer after I build a new computer if Zen2 ends up being real nice.

edit: the NAS at least has stablebit scanner doing its version of disc scrubbing ever month so that's let me catch bad drives before any data was lost since it found the bad sectors on two of the WD Reds that had gotten bad blocks run on them approximately 2 years later

MagusDraco fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Jan 8, 2019

8-bit Miniboss
May 24, 2005

CORPO COPS CAME FOR MY


MagusDraco posted:

How would you go about doing that in windows. Don't really have a spare computer to throw them into that can run bad blocks off a linux boot disc for a week (or really fit the extra 2 drives into the NAS in the first place since it maxes out at 4 drives. If "run it in bad blocks for a week anyway" is still the best option I'll probably wait to RMA the two bad disks til the summer after I build a new computer if Zen2 ends up being real nice.

edit: the NAS at least has stablebit scanner doing its version of disc scrubbing ever month so that's let me catch bad drives before any data was lost since it's found bad sectors on two of the WD Reds that had gotten bad blocks run on them approximately 2 years later

I... don't know. I just have spare machines to use.

I have a problem.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


MagusDraco posted:

How would you go about doing that in windows. Don't really have a spare computer to throw them into that can run bad blocks off a linux boot disc for a week (or really fit the extra 2 drives into the NAS in the first place since it maxes out at 4 drives. If "run it in bad blocks for a week anyway" is still the best option I'll probably wait to RMA the two bad disks til the summer after I build a new computer if Zen2 ends up being real nice.

edit: the NAS at least has stablebit scanner doing its version of disc scrubbing ever month so that's let me catch bad drives before any data was lost since it found the bad sectors on two of the WD Reds that had gotten bad blocks run on them approximately 2 years later

Get a cheapo USB enclosure to sata adapter. They're really handy to have. (At least until m.2/u.2 is all you own.) You need to know if your spare disk is really spare. (Also why do you have an extra disk now? I missed that.)

MagusDraco
Nov 11, 2011

even speedwagon was trolled


H110Hawk posted:

Get a cheapo USB enclosure to sata adapter. They're really handy to have. (At least until m.2/u.2 is all you own.) You need to know if your spare disk is really spare. (Also why do you have an extra disk now? I missed that.)

Eh technically don't have the extra disks yet. I have two 8TB WD Reds that have bad sectors that I swapped out for new drives. One went bad last July and the other went bad last week. They're both under warranty until October so I can still get them RMA replaced just a matter of going and doing it.

edit: most annoying part would be getting packaging sorted.

MagusDraco fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Jan 8, 2019

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Have them do advance rma, then you have perfect return materials.

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007

Bote McBoteface. so what


MagusDraco posted:

How would you go about doing that in windows. Don't really have a spare computer to throw them into that can run bad blocks off a linux boot disc for a week (or really fit the extra 2 drives into the NAS in the first place since it maxes out at 4 drives. If "run it in bad blocks for a week anyway" is still the best option I'll probably wait to RMA the two bad disks til the summer after I build a new computer if Zen2 ends up being real nice.

edit: the NAS at least has stablebit scanner doing its version of disc scrubbing ever month so that's let me catch bad drives before any data was lost since it found the bad sectors on two of the WD Reds that had gotten bad blocks run on them approximately 2 years later

I've found that Hard Disk Sentinel has a good selection of diagnostics for use in Windows. Get a $20 enclosure, which really comes in handy for drive maintenance/analysis or just giving yourself a functional external drive.

uhhhhahhhhohahhh
Oct 9, 2012


How is there no HDD burn in app on Synology

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


MagusDraco posted:

Eh technically don't have the extra disks yet. I have two 8TB WD Reds that have bad sectors that I swapped out for new drives. One went bad last July and the other went bad last week. They're both under warranty until October so I can still get them RMA replaced just a matter of going and doing it.

edit: most annoying part would be getting packaging sorted.

Advanced rma is cheap and easy. You have to hunt for their mailing label but it was $4.77 for me to ship back my hard drive. (From LA so pretty close to them.)

MagusDraco
Nov 11, 2011

even speedwagon was trolled


Did not realize window's zero fill full format took 36 hours. Oh well, this (followed by a long SMART test and then another short SMART test) is probably good enough for now. Not badblocks but it is something.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


How big was the drive? Is that normal?

MagusDraco
Nov 11, 2011

even speedwagon was trolled


slidebite posted:

How big was the drive? Is that normal?

8TB and I did a p count of 2 so uh...I think it's zeroing the drive twice so rip me this is gonna take awhile but also I guess half the point was to make the drive write something to every sector so a later surface scan may see if it has bad sectors? I'm not entirely sure if that works and if this is a waste of time or not but after this is done I'm just gonna run a long SMART test and then another short smart test

MagusDraco fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Jan 9, 2019

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007

Bote McBoteface. so what


Again, guys, the time it takes to read and/or write to a drive is entirely dependent on capacity and drive speed. Zero-fill takes exactly as much time as it would take you to fill the drive with actual content.

Sheep
Jul 24, 2003


36 hours for 8TB of data is 493Mb/s which is frankly really fucking fast for a non-solid state disk.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Will that format with 0 command work on a networked drive or does it have to be local? If it would work on a networked, would the PC that gave it need to stay turned on for the whole time?

MagusDraco
Nov 11, 2011

even speedwagon was trolled


Sheep posted:

36 hours for 8TB of data is 493Mb/s which is frankly really fucking fast for a non-solid state disk.

I mean 36 hours is a really shitty guesstimate on my part. We're at 60 % as of now and I started it around 22-24 hours ago. I mean this seems about right actually since 140 MB/s would mean 11.53 Terabytes per day unless my math is wrong.




edit: No idea if it would work on a networked drive but the format command is done via the command prompt window and if you close that window the format command stops so pretty sure the computer would have to remain on the entire time if you did it via the command prompt on a remote computer. I just did it on the command prompt of the computer in question through a remote desktop connection. I don't need to keep the remote desktop session open if that's what you mean.

WRT to drive speed it's just some 8TB 7200rpm Seagate Ironwolf because that was what was on sale and I didn't want to mess with the tape mod for a WD White label and can't do the molex to SATA power stuff because the Dell T20 has a custom proprietary PSU with no Molex and a nonstandard mobo connector. 'course it was also $200 for it with the Xeon so hell that was worth it in late 2015/early 2016.

MagusDraco fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Jan 9, 2019

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Not sure if this is a dumb question, but what is the difference between an "NAS" HDD and a "Surveillance" HDD?

8-bit Miniboss
May 24, 2005

CORPO COPS CAME FOR MY


slidebite posted:

Not sure if this is a dumb question, but what is the difference between an "NAS" HDD and a "Surveillance" HDD?

Surveillance drives are made for continuous writing and are not ideal for reading.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Supposedly surveillance drives are a little less picky about error correction, since when recording video a few flipped bits aren't going to make a major impact in what you're looking at, but the disk locking up for 30 seconds trying to correct a bad sector sure as hell could be a problem.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

slidebite posted:

Not sure if this is a dumb question, but what is the difference between an "NAS" HDD and a "Surveillance" HDD?

Typically NAS drives have special firmware (TELR, mostly) that makes them play nice in RAID and other sorts of arrays. They also usually have some better vibration suppression and potentially better warranties than normal drives.

Surveillance drives are typically intended to run continuously, writing a solid stream of data forever. The firmware is typically a little different because of this. The actual hardware and warranty support may or may not differ from a NAS drive. Generally you can use these in a small NAS without issue.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg


Thanks for the answers!

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007

Bote McBoteface. so what


Sheep posted:

36 hours for 8TB of data is 493Mb/s which is frankly really fucking fast for a non-solid state disk.

Uh, did you really mean 493 Mb/s or MB/s, because none of what you wrote really makes any sense within context.

MagusDraco posted:

I mean 36 hours is a really shitty guesstimate on my part. We're at 60 % as of now and I started it around 22-24 hours ago. I mean this seems about right actually since 140 MB/s would mean 11.53 Terabytes per day unless my math is wrong.




edit: No idea if it would work on a networked drive but the format command is done via the command prompt window and if you close that window the format command stops so pretty sure the computer would have to remain on the entire time if you did it via the command prompt on a remote computer. I just did it on the command prompt of the computer in question through a remote desktop connection. I don't need to keep the remote desktop session open if that's what you mean.

WRT to drive speed it's just some 8TB 7200rpm Seagate Ironwolf because that was what was on sale and I didn't want to mess with the tape mod for a WD White label and can't do the molex to SATA power stuff because the Dell T20 has a custom proprietary PSU with no Molex and a nonstandard mobo connector. 'course it was also $200 for it with the Xeon so hell that was worth it in late 2015/early 2016.

This makes sense, because typical HDD transfer rates are in the 100-200 MB/s range. That's why I split the difference and wrote my comments based on an 150 MB/s average.

MagusDraco
Nov 11, 2011

even speedwagon was trolled


As an update getting around the 36-40 hour mark and it's at 98%. Also only just now realized that stablebit scanner being left open pegs the cpu at around 30-40% use so whoops that's definitely something I gotta remember to close so it only runs in the background. I guess that graph is more intensive than I thought or something.

edit: actually it just finished.

Red_Fred
Oct 21, 2010



Fallen Rib

I recently built a new computer so I have an Intel 2500K CPU, RAM and other bits lying around. Can I use this to build my own NAS? I figured I would likely have to buy a new motherboard and case as my current one is huge (ITX and smaller would be good) but would this make any sense than just buying a brand new NAS?

Sorry I'm very new to NASs but I'm keen to move away from External HDDs for my local backups if possible.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

I did this with my old 2500K too and it runs fine. I just got some HDDs and ran unraid and it runs like a champ. Didn't bother with a new case or anything. Eventually I would like to move to something newer because the PSU is getting a little older but I don't think that would be too much of a hassle.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Red_Fred posted:

I recently built a new computer so I have an Intel 2500K CPU, RAM and other bits lying around. Can I use this to build my own NAS?

You absolutely can! A 2500k isn't going to be the most power-efficient chip you can throw at it, but it'll certainly work for just about anything you'd want. The lack of ECC RAM is a mild concern if you're planning on storing super-important stuff on it; less of a concern if you're mostly storing movies and :files: or have solid backups elsewhere.

There's no need to buy a new motherboard or case if you're gonna use the 2500k; if you need more SATA ports, grab an add-in card like a M1015/1115 off ebay. As far as the case, as long as it's big enough to hold the number of drives you want, that's great--no need to replace it unless you really want to.

If you wanted to roll your own NAS, you'd end up spending quite a bit more, since you'd be looking at effectively building an entirely new system (probably some Xeon E3 CPU, 16+ GB ECC RAM, Supermicro motherboard, case, PSU if needed).

Happiness Commando
Feb 1, 2002
$$ joy at gunpoint $$



Is it going to be possible to use server pull SAS HDDs in a Synology or QNAP enclosure? I want to do literally zero computer janitoring, and I have access to a bunch of drives for free that I would like to use if possible.

Really I just want something like 2x 2 TB in RAID 1, but I also dont want to spend a bunch of money and also not have to janitor a homebuilt solution

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Happiness Commando posted:

Is it going to be possible to use server pull SAS HDDs in a Synology or QNAP enclosure? I want to do literally zero computer janitoring, and I have access to a bunch of drives for free that I would like to use if possible.

SAS drives are not SATA drives, and while you can (often) use a SATA drive in a SAS backplane, you cannot use a SAS drive in a SATA mount--which is what you'll find in a Synology or QNAP system. You can potentially get adapters, but those add a little depth/size, and thus the drives often won't lock in or the front door panels won't close, etc.

If you can find some SATA drives, though, have at! Maybe keep a few extras in your closet to make up for possible failures due to being used drives.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


Happiness Commando posted:

Is it going to be possible to use server pull SAS HDDs in a Synology or QNAP enclosure? I want to do literally zero computer janitoring, and I have access to a bunch of drives for free that I would like to use if possible.

Really I just want something like 2x 2 TB in RAID 1, but I also dont want to spend a bunch of money and also not have to janitor a homebuilt solution

Sounds like unraid might be what you want here. You would still need a SAS HBA of some kind off ebay. (Or maybe this source of disks which totally isn't your job.)

Eletriarnation
Apr 6, 2005

People don't appreciate the substance of things...
objects in space.



Oven Wrangler

DrDork posted:

You absolutely can! A 2500k isn't going to be the most power-efficient chip you can throw at it

This is true with stock settings, but if you're going to go through with this plan I'd check UEFI to see if undervolting is possible. My cheap Z68 board doesn't allow it so I don't know about the 2500K, but my older X58 board does. I was able to get a "130W" TDP i7-920 which usually ran around 90-100 under load at stock to more like 25-30 at 0.95V and around 2GHz.

Red_Fred
Oct 21, 2010



Fallen Rib

DrDork posted:

You absolutely can! A 2500k isn't going to be the most power-efficient chip you can throw at it, but it'll certainly work for just about anything you'd want. The lack of ECC RAM is a mild concern if you're planning on storing super-important stuff on it; less of a concern if you're mostly storing movies and :files: or have solid backups elsewhere.

There's no need to buy a new motherboard or case if you're gonna use the 2500k; if you need more SATA ports, grab an add-in card like a M1015/1115 off ebay. As far as the case, as long as it's big enough to hold the number of drives you want, that's great--no need to replace it unless you really want to.

If you wanted to roll your own NAS, you'd end up spending quite a bit more, since you'd be looking at effectively building an entirely new system (probably some Xeon E3 CPU, 16+ GB ECC RAM, Supermicro motherboard, case, PSU if needed).

So it looks like no one makes ITX boards for that chipset anymore so I’m thinking about buying a new case (which is smaller and can be tucked away), this will mean I can also reuse my old motherboard.

What this also means is that if I need to connect a monitor to this computer I’ll need another graphics card as the P67 chipset doesn’t support integrated. Wil I need to connect a monitor or can I just remote in?

Is the NAS software the OS? Sorry if these questions are dumb I’m just very new to this.

MagusDraco
Nov 11, 2011

even speedwagon was trolled


Red_Fred posted:

So it looks like no one makes ITX boards for that chipset anymore so I’m thinking about buying a new case (which is smaller and can be tucked away), this will mean I can also reuse my old motherboard.

What this also means is that if I need to connect a monitor to this computer I’ll need another graphics card as the P67 chipset doesn’t support integrated. Wil I need to connect a monitor or can I just remote in?

Is the NAS software the OS? Sorry if these questions are dumb I’m just very new to this.

the NAS software (unraid, freenas, others) usually is the OS. You usually control it remotely via a web interface and can setup network drives or other sort of folder shares so you can see the NAS in windows. You may need a monitor and keyboard and mouse connected for the initial install.

Red_Fred
Oct 21, 2010



Fallen Rib

MagusDraco posted:

the NAS software (unraid, freenas, others) usually is the OS. You usually control it remotely via a web interface and can setup network drives or other sort of folder shares so you can see the NAS in windows. You may need a monitor and keyboard and mouse connected for the initial install.

Yeah I read that you install and then run it off a USB stick to save having a boot drive. What’s the best NAS OS then? I didn’t realise there were others. I don’t need fancy features and prefer simplicity.

I am however keen to run some other server software on it as well if possible such as the Unifi controller.

Matt Zerella
Oct 7, 2002


Red_Fred posted:

Yeah I read that you install and then run it off a USB stick to save having a boot drive. What’s the best NAS OS then? I didn’t realise there were others. I don’t need fancy features and prefer simplicity.

I am however keen to run some other server software on it as well if possible such as the Unifi controller.

UnRAID is the easiest. But it costs money.

Happiness Commando
Feb 1, 2002
$$ joy at gunpoint $$



H110Hawk posted:

Sounds like unraid might be what you want here. You would still need a SAS HBA of some kind off ebay. (Or maybe this source of disks which totally isn't your job.)

Yeah if I can't make just the disks work, the low cost option is to just put the server in the basement (after bringing it home from work's basement).

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Red_Fred posted:

Yeah I read that you install and then run it off a USB stick to save having a boot drive. What’s the best NAS OS then? I didn’t realise there were others. I don’t need fancy features and prefer simplicity.

I am however keen to run some other server software on it as well if possible such as the Unifi controller.

FreeNAS is one of the simplest in terms of not needing janitoring basically ever, and is free and easy to set up, and is intended to be managed via remote web interface.

You will need a monitor/keyboard for the initial setup for any of the options, though, since a P67 board will not support IPMI or other remote management systems (which are super nice, if you ever end up getting a newer system/motherboard). USB keys are the desired installation medium as well as destination for FreeNAS--you can run it off a HDD, but there's no need to, and with USB sticks you can set everything up, clone it to a spare, and then keep it in your desk in case anything goes wonky with the actual OS.

MagusDraco
Nov 11, 2011

even speedwagon was trolled


FreeNAS does have some hardware requirements/heavily suggests you use ECC Ram or at least did at the time I was considering using FreeNAS

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